To be a good treasure hunter, one must be able to "think out of the box". Lateral thinking is important because quite often the intended meaning of the setter is totally different from what is literally contained in the clues. For example, "flower" in the literal sense may refer to "rose" or "tulip". But in the cryptic sense, by means of wordplay, "flower" can mean "river", because "flower" refers to something that flows. There are other examples—"letter" refers to "landlord" (one who lets); "butter" refers to "goat" (one that butts); "supporter of the proposer" refers to "knee".
Because of the possibilities of interpreting treasure hunt clues in the literal and lateral sense, there is always the danger of having two possible answers within a given sector; and both answers would be equally acceptable! Therefore, to adopt one of the examples given above, if the clue asks for "flower", both "rose" and "Kinabatangan" might be acceptable, because "rose" answers in the literal sense; whereas "Kinabatangan" answers in the lateral (wordplay) sense.
Q12) A striking catch for an angler?
An interesting clue. If this were a move in the game of chess, I would give it an exclamation mark (!). Let's see how should we solve this clue.
First, let's approach the solution from the literal sense. In such a case, we need to determine what are the words that will agree with "striking" and "catch for an angler". To deal with the easier one of the two, "catch for an angler" would most probably refer to a fish. So it makes sense to scan the sector for a fish. Fine, we progress. As to the second word, "striking" that is a little bit more complicated. Maybe we are looking for "assault" or "attack" or "hit" etc. The range of possibilities is much wider. We must find a signboard containing words that would agree to both those possibilities.
The CoC, adopting the literal approach to the solution, had intended the board containing Bass Attack as the required answer. The word "Attack" is not in continuous tense, but I can accept it in this case, although we have the word "striking" (as opposed to "strike") in the clue. I don't think it is a violation of grammatical rules.
Now, let's approach the clue from the lateral sense—by means of wordplay. Is there anything in the clue that would support this approach to the solution? In my opinion, there is. The question mark (?) at the end of the clue is quite often an indication of a wordplay or a pun, though that is not necessarily always the case.
Within that sector, there was the signboard containing Pusat X-Ray Sinaran. We did not see the required answer, Bass Attack. So the moment I saw the "X-Ray" board, I thought it could fit. The point is that "ray" is a kind of fish. I checked the word from the dictionary just to be very sure.
And what about the "X"? That is a little bit more complicated. An "X" is a strike in bowling. So since "ray" fits the "catch for an angler", therefore, as a wordplay, X-Ray fits the "striking fish". However, we did not really like this answer because of that extra word "Sinaran" on the board. We were convinced that if this was not the answer, it must be because the CoC wouldn't agree to the presence of "Sinaran".
When the answer was revealed, the CoC dismissed the X-Ray without even any mention of the "Sinaran". He just took the "X" as "doesn't answer striking". However, I was fortunate enough to meet the CoC the following morning during breakfast. I asked him why wouldn't "X" be accepted. He said he didn't think of "X" as a strike in bowling. He seemed to agree to the acceptability of the answer then. He said he couldn't think of all the possibilities!
I can only symphatise with the CoC. I have been in the same boat before. When they are masters and grandmasters in the field, there is no telling how far their imagination and creativity can stretch!
12 comments:
which is why in some cases, you'll find teams providing written explanation as part of their answers.
I was part of the COC team for this hunt (my first experience of that), and must say that it was a great experience working with the Grandmaster. The selection of questions was indeed a time consuming process, as we wanted to achieve a balance in the level of difficulty so that the irregular hunters and the masters could all still enjoy the hunt. (I hope that to some extent we managed to achieve that :)
It's always interesting following your thoughts and perspectives on the hunt questions, and this is no different now, even if I had a hand in these questions.
With reference to Q12 above, I did have a brief discussion with GM Chong on the X-Ray Sinaran answer while we were marking, as we found a few teams putting this answer. My issue with this answer even then, as you also mentioned, is that Sinaran, which is the business name, did not fit with the question. We quickly agreed that the answer did not fit (but we each probably followed different thought lines to reach this conclusion). You give a good argument for it though, although I still would not have accepted it for reason above...
Goes to show how we all (me included) sometimes try to fit our own answers to the questions, which make the COC's job all the more challenging as some of these answers may just be valid.
Got a feeling why many opted for X-Ray Sinaran... because a couple of lorry and bus drivers decided to up the ante for the hunters on that faithful Saturday morning by parking their humongous vehicles right in front of the audio accessories shop carrying the BASS ATTACK signage. XP (Btw, the shop was the last corner shop on the opposite side of the road).
Also, how would one explain the "-" in the word X-Ray??? It cannot simply be discarded especially when the question is coming from quality COCs. Food for thoughts.
Yes, delurk, during the post mortem Teck Koon told me that there were times in the past when hunters would include "explanations" to justify their answers. He related a specific example where justifications were given for a treasure; and the TOS accepted that treasure although it was not the intended solution! I have more to say about this in connection with the "Guava", i.e. Treasure 2, but I will come to that later.
Perhaps that's a good idea, I don't know. However, I can't imagine how the CoC would cope if all the hunters include their respective justifications for each and every answer. Would have been quite a daunting task for the CoC, huh? The grading process would become a dreadful task!
wei ming,
First of all, may I congratulate you and your team for a job very well done! I hope you know that all these comments and discussions are not complaints. We're here to discuss some interesting finer points in the hope of improving ourselves—for the hunters and CoCs alike.
Yes, wei ming, as I've said, we did not really like the presence of "Sinaran" on the board. Before this I had never hunted a GM Chong's hunt, so I was not well-versed with this style. Some CoCs are not very accurate, and additional words like "Sinaran" would not have been a problem at all. However, in this particular case, on the strength of GM Chong's reputation, as well as Teck Koon's familiarity with his style, we marked this answer as "50-50" mainly because of "Sinaran".
I myself in the past had conjured up hunt clues where the intended answers did not account for the entire business name. But after extensive discussions with some masters and grandmasters, I have accordingly changed my "style". It's just a part of the growing up process as a CoC I guess.
liew, my friend, after we exchanged text messages, I meant to raise the issue about the hyphen when I posted this thread. But I somehow forgotten all about it! Thanks for bringing it up again here.
As I said, I did consider that hyphen when deciding on X-Ray Sinaran. I did not wrecklessly ignore it. However, there are a few points I'd like to raise in connection with the hyphen; and I just don't have to time to do so right now. You should see the amount of files on my desk!... hehehe.
I will come back again to comment on the hyphen.
Nothing like putting in a few extra drops of sweat (on the part of the CoC) to make it a tight and exclusive fit, Period!
There were a few debatable ones in last weeks hunt, where the possibility of more than one answer existed.
- Bass Attack (Can anyone fault an answer like X-RAY @ Pusat X-ray Sinaran?)
- Mis (I feel to play on a 2nd level substitute for spirits ie booze could be potentially hazardous on the CoC .... there are plenty of "heartless spirits around" ie. AlE, BeeR, WinE, WhiskY etc etc and potentially any of these words can be combined with the signage to satisfy "Terrifying Beings" if one were to work on it hard enough! I am not sure if the CoC has the energy to comb all signs??)
- Seamaster (another one with similar concerns as above. Local metal is in abundance !)
Blogging addiction is a terrible thing! I will still comment on the hyphen later, I promise! But I can't control my excitement when I saw 2R1I's comment.
It is amazing that you have specifically mentioned those examples, 2R1I. We have similar ideas about some of the clues in this hunt. I have planned to write about those clues, but haven't actually gotten around to it.
"Heartless spirits"—I will comment more in my coming thread entitled "Spiritual Question"
"Seamaster"—I will comment more in my coming thread entitled "Metalic Captain"
Oh! there is quite a lot more to comment!
Now, where was I? Oh yes, the hyphen in "X-Ray".
We need to come to a consensus about all these punctuations; should they be accounted for in the solutions?
In one of my past hunts, I conjured up this question:
Q) I would simply come after to be hard.
A) SOL Department Store
The words "I would", when written in a simpler way, would become "I'd". When the "I'd" come after [the answer], we will get something that has a similar meaning with "hard".
SOL + I'D = SOLID = HARD
Notice that in this case, the apostrophe has been dropped in the final solution.
Another example:
Q) When Fred's in trouble, he'd look for them?
A) Friends Cafe
The word "trouble" is an anagram indicator, and the fodders are "Fred's in". The word "them" at the end of the sentence is akin to a definition so that the solver can get an idea that we're looking for people.
Fred's + in -> anagram -> Friends
Again the apostrophe has been dropped from the final solution. Is it allowable to simply drop the apostrophe?
Having seen a fair number of cryptic crosswords clues, apparently it is an established rule that it is OK to disregard the apostrophe from the final solution (I'd invite the many crosswords experts out there to comment please).
(I will post this and then continue in another frame).
Now we have a different scenario with the "X-Ray" question; i.e. it is the other way round. We are given a clue which is to be analysed to arrive at something which has an additional punctuation—the hyphen (-).
The question we need to answer now is whether the presence of that hyphen can disqualify the entire board as an answer? I can't see a very good reason how the hyphen can disqualify the board.
Let's expand our investigation a little bit further.
Suppose that that signboard contained "X" Ray instead. Now the X is contained in quotes, and there is no hyphen. Would those quotes disqualify the board too?
OK, how about this: (X) Ray
Or this: X! Ray!
In fact, I once came across a question by that "sadictic CoC" up north, where the answer had something to do with the word HOKUM; only that the M was contained in brackets like this: (M).
In my opinion, there is enough precedence to support the idea that punctuations in themselves should not be enough to disqualify the remaining words as the answer. It should be all or nothing. If we want to exclude the hyphen, then we must give the same treatment to the rest too.
As a follow up to 2R1I's post, and while waiting in anticipation to Corny's analysis of Spiritual Question and Metallic Captain, I would just add that in a themed hunt like the Kiwanis 'Golden Memories and Silver Dreams' Hunt, this would have been a clue to help make the questions easier to break.
No doubt many possibilities exist, but first port of call (seamaster :-) when metal is mentioned, should have been gold and silver.
Likewise, it was mentioned during briefing that questions could be related to past hunts' themes (ie golden memories), and a copy of this was made available to all participants, so one who is observant would have spotted or known that 'Thriller' was a previous theme, and might then have associated 'horrifying beings' to zombies.
Of course it's much easier after the fact, but those were our thoughts when setting out the questions, especially for those bolded ones.
Wei Ming, I think you misunderstood my comments.
I am not saying that there were insufficient clues (although the number of possibilities to ponder upon can be somewhat reduced) in the question.
I am saying that, the way the highlited questions are phrased (I call them high risk questions for a COC), the chance of someone finding an answer which is not the one intended by the COC is very high indeed.
eg. terrifying beings = beasts
heartless spirit = A(l)E
So a signboard like bsts (or its anagram form would fit well)
eg. terrifying beings = monsters
heartless spirit = R(u)M
So a signboard like stones (or its anagram form would fit well)
And there are probably tens or hundred of other possibilities, which leaves the CoC very vulnerable.
2 solutions, (1) play on the same level (like most CoCs do)
ie. heartless spirits = S(pirit)S
OR (2) make it a tight and exclusive fit, by using more of the signage like the business for example (indiscreetly of course).
I am no expert, these comments don't represent the entire hunting community but mine alone, for the benefit of wannabe COCs.
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