Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Novice Hunt 1—Questions & Analysis

I thought the questions set for the Novice Hunt 1 were not very tough and did not deserve detailed analysis. But I have received some emails and text messages requesting me to analyse and discuss at least some of the questions, if only for the sake of the new hunters. I suppose there is no harm to share some of my thoughts on some of the interesting questions.

In the course of setting the questions for these hunt, I and Alvin had some interesting exchanges of opinions over a course of about 2 weeks. One question was intended for a signboard located in Inanam. Originally, Alvin set a simple cryptic clue which I thought was flawless in its solution. But at that stage, Alvin had just simply conjured up the clue at the spur of the moment, and he meant to polish it up a bit.

Although the clue was OK, I did not like the surface reading which I thought had meaningless "storyline". Alvin agreed with me and then I suggested that since this was meant to be a novice hunt, why not set a straightforward question—not even a clue—literally a straightforward general knowledge question! And so I set the question and sent it off the Alvin for further comments. He liked it and then amended it a bit to account for a second word which was found on the signboard. All this was before we actually went recce on one Saturday afternoon. When we finally did make our round, I saw the board for the first time, and I was satisfied that we have done a good job in setting an easy question:

Q11) PERLU DARI PEMBEKAL INI UNTUK MEMANDU JENTERA BERGERAK RINGAN (BERANTAI) BTM TIDAK MELEBIHI 5000KG.

Meant to be a "bonus" question, and I was convinced that most of the teams would immediately know the answer once they get to the sector. Certainly, I am not known to set such a long question, but y'know, I can adjust if the need arises. But I was wrong. All the teams got stuck with this question—most of them spent at least half an hour in this sector, I just couldn't believe it!

Thankfully, however, some of the regular teams finally figured out the answer after spending like eternity there. It must be some kind of blindspot. That's the trouble if one adopts only the cryptic approach—he is bound to miss the most natural and literal meaning of the question!


The PEMBEKAL is covered by the SUPPLIER on the signboard. I'm aware that there were a few signboards with SUPPLIER on them, but hunters should've immediately been able to narrow down their search to those few boards. If they had done that, then maybe they would have been able to see, much quicker, the "Lesen G" in LESENG.

The only unsolved question of the day was this:

Q29) EDGE OF DAMASCUS?

I knew that this would be very tough for the hunters, but I thought some of them might be able to solve it. But on hindsight, perhaps it's just too far-fetched. They're few factors which were against the hunters. Firstly, there was a signboard with BABYLON there in the correct sequence. I chose the words in the clue because of BABYLON. And true enough many teams were easily drawn to that BABYLON board. Secondly, apart from the decoy, this clue is also tough for the local hunters because it's something "new" to them. I have of course explained thoroughly about first and last letters during the briefing, but perhaps it's just too much to expect the hunters to be able to think that far.

Cryptically, EDGE refers to either the first letter or the last letter of the fodder. In this case, the first or the last letter of DAMASCUS. Therefore, in this case the EDGE (referring to a single letter) must be D or S. And that's why the answer is DORS. But I think the final straw that broke the camel's back was that the sign was small, and it would have required an experience hunter to spot it! And so in the end, no one solved this question, and as a result, I lost a RM5 bet to Alvin!


Another question which I'm sure the regular hunters could tell of my trademark in it was like this:

Q33) WITHIN THE HOUR, PROTECT OR HIDE A FUGITIVE.

The kind of question which I see as akin to a jigsaw puzzle, in that some syllables are put together to form a word which is defined by some words in the clue. We are looking for something found on the signboard which, when inserted into (WITHIN) the word HOUR, will give the meaning of PROTECT OR HIDE A FUGITIVE. I think it would have been helpful if one's vocabulary is sound, but perhaps if one were to flip through a dictionary, he is bound to find the word H...OUR or HO...UR or HOU...R which would connect to PROTECT OR HIDE A FUGITIVE. But in this case, it would obviously take much longer to arrive at the answer. But anyway, the thing I was looking for on the board was ARB, because when inserted into HOUR, can give HARBOUR. No complaint about small sign here.


In the course of setting the hunt, Alvin suggested that since most of the questions were "easy"—and in fact they were—we should allocate only 4 hours hunting time. But I convinced him to give at least 5 hours with 30 minutes penalty time. That should give them sufficient time to attempt some of these "artistic" questions of mine. And I am glad to say that some of them did solve them in the end, having spent very long time looking at the signboards. That said, however, as usual, time management is still a universal weakness among the local hunters. For about half of the 20 teams arrived at the finish station beyond the 5-hour hunting time and therefore incurred the time penalty.

In the end, I'm happy to note that we had a good passing rate, though not with flying colours. I am still baffled by the unusual mistakes committed by all the regular teams—answer which was solved did not make it to the answer script. Others even having been solved, were spelt wrongly. Others still were not written in full. Very, very strange mistakes coming from the regular hunters. Maybe it must be some sort of curse that day, I don't know!


44 comments:

Cornelius said...

I received a question via email this morning from a hunter. She asked me if I would have accepted the answer D & S Enterprise, if that board could be found within that sector.

I would not have accepted D & S, because that answer fails on grammatical grounds. The question requires the EDGE, meaning referring to only ONE of the 2 edges of DAMASCUS. The answer has to be either D OR S, but not both. D and S would be correct for EDGES.

2 Romans 1 Impostor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
2 Romans 1 Impostor said...

What if one's answer was:

1. D @ Damansara Sdn Bhd or
2. S @ Kedai Alat Tulis Saravanan
3. Initial Surprises
etc etc

Would you have accepted?

Question is open for a brutal beating dont you think?

Cornelius said...

Thank you, 2R1I, for your comment.

It was shortly after I discussed one of the questions from the Tembak Series 1 Hunt in May when I received a similar question from a new hunter. That question was unique in my opinion because the answer was just a single letter, E, which was found on a building column.

Shortly after I posted that discussion, I received a similar question as yours from a new hunter. I thought it's an intelligent question, though I did not bring it into the open to discuss the matter further.

However, I must say that I'm a bit surprised that I'm asked the same question again now, by a master hunter!

First, let's talk about consistency. Imagine that we have this route question:

Q) Start counting another rate.

And a simple analysis based on "initial" approach would yield CAR. Now the question I want to ask all the master hunters is this:

Can we accept this answer?

CAR @ CARTER ENTERPRISE

That "CAR" is a part of the word "CARTER" of course, but for the purpose of treasure hunting, are we allowed to take away CAR only and discard TER for the answer?

Now, I ask a similar question: If, from our analysis of the question, we find that we are required to find a single letter, say, D only, are we allowed to simply choose a signboard containing "D" and then isolate that to form our answer? In fact, to use your example, 2R1I, like this:

D @ Damansara Sdn Bhd

Or, if we're required to find "S" only:

S @ Kedai Alat Tulis Saravanan

I think all of you master hunters should be very careful how you answer these questions, because you may just open the door to endless arguments during answer presentations!

I will post this first, and then continue in a fresh frame...

Cornelius said...

When I set the "DAMASCUS" question, I considered for a brief moment, the possibility of an isolated "D", or maybe "S" somewhere within that sector - say on a building meant for identification of building block. Of the two, I'm more inclined to think that "D" is more probable.

Now the question that begs to be answered is whether that "D" (or "S") on its own can qualify as the answer for the question.

Here, I think the answer should reasonably be "YES", because "D" is indeed an "edge" of "DAMASCUS"; and "S" is also an "edge" of "DAMASCUS".

Having said that,however, any experienced hunter would testify that we are often put into a situation of having several appealing answers to a single question while hunting. What do we do then? Do we simply pick one and then argue with the CoC to accept our answer? Will the CoC be compelled to accept our answer?

We find that in some cases - the red herring questions are good examples - the CoC deliberately misleads the hunters by guiding them to an apparently exclusive fit, when actually there is another board which is an even more perfect fit!

What I'm trying to say is that, although "D" on its own; or "S" on its own, can answer "EDGE OF DAMASCUS", they are not perfect nonetheless! By answering "D" only, we are only half right, because "S" is also an equally possible answer.

Therefore I say, "D OR S" is still the best answer for the question! I will therefore reject a stand-alone "D"; or stand-alone "S"!

2 Romans 1 Impostor said...

My question is rather, what if there was a standalone "D" at a "Damansara Sdn Bhd" (from a logo for example) signage along the sector?

No doubt that DORS may be the better answer in that sector (if one were aware of the available choices). But since it is not a visually glaring signage (I read that it is a tiny signage), how the heck do hunters know that you had wanted DORS and not D (for example), barring that they could read your mind?

In that sense I felt that this question needed some tightening of the screws and bolts.

I would have had a different opinion had the signage for DORS been a LARGE one.

Cornelius said...

I have explained my preference for DORS as opposed to a standalone "D" (or "S").

As far as the size of the sign is concerned, what I know is that "ANSWERS ARE VISIBLE FROM THE CAR". I am unaware of the requirement that the intended answer MUST be of similar size with the decoys. But I stand corrected on this particular point.

2 Romans 1 Impostor said...

Ok my last comment on this topic:

In my opinion, the setter should take the onus to make their questions a perfect fit and not the other way around ie. hunters having to make a choice from a list of answers that can hold water (that is assuming they don't take off after claiming the first acceptable answer)!

Once again, it is not a bad question, just that it needed some tightening of the screws and bolts in my opinion.

Cornelius said...

Please don't get me wrong, 2R1I, I welcome opinions and suggestions - even debates, since all these will help us all improve.

Please don't feel restrained from commenting and sharing your opinions here!

But that is the point I'm trying to make, 2R1I. Is not DORS a perfect fit against "D" (or "S")?

If you were there that day, and faced with the "DAMASCUS" question, and you found a standalone "D" (or "S"), would you have been satisfied? Or would you have tried to look "for something better"; "something more convincing"?

A possible spoiler to my answer is SORD if it's found there. But I checked, and there's none.

delurk said...

You can't fault stand alone D or S. there should not be any degree of correctness.

Old city at the edge of Damascus?

Cornelius said...

Aha!... another master has joined in the debate!... hahaha!

D is possible answer.

S is possible answer.

But neither is full answer.

The outer-most LETTER of the word DAMASCUS is D OR S. Not just D alone.

Claire said...

I have to agree with delurk here. DORS, a standalone D or standalone S would fit as well. Hence I would accept any of the said answers.

A little added definition or pointer to the question would make the answer a tight fit and the question elegant.

delurk said...

oops, that "old city" thing is faulty. sorry

Cornelius said...

Yes, Claire, I agreed, D can fit; S can fit. But neither answers the question fully.

But oh well, I can't force you all to agree with me. Let's all agree to disagree, shall we?... hehehe

delurk said...

At the edge of Damascus, a spaceship landed?

Cornelius said...

Umm... I wish I know how to respond to your last comment, delurk. Let me try to understand your point first.

Cornelius said...

OK, all together now!

WHAT IS THE OUTER-MOST LETTER OF THE WORD DAMASCUS?

1) D

Half correct, because you did not cover the other possibility (s) in your answer.

2) S

Half correct, because you did not cover the other possibility (D) in your answer.

Now how would you answer the question in full?

renroc said...

Agree with delurk that if an ans is correct (without any 'discernable faults'), there shouldn't be any 'degree of correctness'.
Though my team found '...ish' as the ans to '5/3', I can't find any fault with 'H @ hydrant'.
Would 'HORY' have been better ?
Would its existence have caused the earlier answers to be incorrect ??

Cornelius said...

Hey renroc!

It's been a while since the last time you commented in my blog! Welcome back, my friend!... hehehe

So, OK, renroc, let me ask you the following questions:

Imagine that you're hunting within that sector and now faced with the question:

Q) 5/3

And now you are able to employ your perfect observation skill to spot

1) ...ISH

2) H @ Hydrant

Which of the 2 would you choose? Would say you'd at least spend some moments to weigh the pros can cons? They appear to be equally acceptable, don't you agree?

In fact, I think Alex has been unfairly treated in this case! And yes, I know the CoC's defense regarding the dots. But I do not agree with the CoC!

Now imagine that you're hunting in our hunt here in KK on Monday, and you are faced with this question:

Q) EDGE OF DAMASCUS?

And again with your perfect observation skill, you are able to find these signboards:

1) D

2) S

3) DORS

Now bear in mind that all these boards are visible from the car. I believe that is the duty owed by the CoC, i.e. he must ensure that all answers are visible from the car. Of the size of the boards, however, I say nothing - I am unaware of any rule that the CoC is obligated to choose only LARGE signboards.

Anyway, my question to you, renroc, is which one would you choose from 1, 2 and 3 above? Do you think that you would find yourself in the same situation as in the "5/3" question above? Or perhaps you would take much lesser time to decide on your answer in this second case? Which of the three options is the best answer?

Although I think Alex has been unfairly treated with his H@Hydrant, I must insist that the circumstance is not the same in the case of the "DAMASCUS" question. I'm of the opinion that DORS is anytime much more accurate and favourable when compared to the other options.

I owe no duty to the hunters as to the size of the intended answer. As long as it is visible from the car, I have done my part. It is just too bad if the hunters failed to spot the superior answer and chose an inferior one instead.

In this connection, I must point out that the location of this board is on the external surface of a shop. There was opportunity for hunters to park their cars and take their sweet time to scan the boards. This is unlike some hunts in KL where the intended answers were microscopic in size and found on a highway with practically no opportunity to stop or even slow down to scan the sectors!

Cornelius said...

Oh wow! I just turned on my invisible statcounter and am amazed at the number of pageloads for today! Typically, I would get 100+. But today I have surpassed 200. Maybe by midnight it can easily reached 250-300?... hehehe.

I suppose it must be very interesting to see this Tukang Kutuk kena kutuk by all the master hunters!... HAHAHA! (Yes, although Claire is not officially recognised as a master hunter, I consider her a master anyway!)

Pray continue, guys!

Damn! I really should consider advertising something in this blog. I'm sure I could've earned something decent by now!

Cornelius said...

Oh! I forgot to say that I met Alvin at the jogging track just now. He's been following this debate too.

And he's kind enough to point out delurk's comment about the spaceship. Very silly of me... mental block I guess. Sorry bout that, delurk, now I see your point about covering the other word on the signboard.

I must say that it is strange that "EDGE OF DAMASCUS" has been deemed as open for interpretations, and hence requires additional words to make it "tight". Maybe this is the price I have to pay for trying to be a perfectionist. And it has come to a stage where anything else from me is unacceptable!

Of course "loose" questions are common in most hunts, e.g.

Q)Tore?

or

Q) Hotel?

Of which I'm sure if I'm given the opportunity, I would be able to come up with several possible answers? For example, Alex's "H @ Hydrant" might come to mind for the second question.

In the end, I just want to say that I always try my best to be perfect in my questions. But I am after all just human and am not immune from making mistakes. So please bear with me, folks, I can only give my best.

Anonymous said...

If u say D can fit & S can also fit, then whats wrong with standalone D as answer? Why must DORS?

Cornelius said...

Anonymous friend,

Am about to go the bed, but before I do that, I'd like to respond to you first.

Yes, I said D can fit; and S can also fit. But if you know me, my friend, I want a perfect answer - not just any one that can fit!

The question asks for "edge" of DAMASCUS. Cryptically, there are 2 possibilities, i.e. either D or S, but not both (note that "edge" is singular). So D and S is out of the question, because that would make 2 edges. Yes, I want the answer to be grammatically perfect too.

Q) EDGE OF DAMASCUS

(i) Correct answer: D

(ii) Correct answer: S

(iii) Perfect answer: D OR S

Because there are TWO possibilities for "edge", the solver must prove that he is aware of those two possibilities to be perfect. So although D is correct, and the question asks for "edge", he must also cover S in his answer. Otherwise his answer is imperfect. He must answer the "edge" is either D or S. So you see, you still give ONE "edge", but you have proven that you know it is either one of those two.

Let me show you an example in the mathematical sense.

Q) WHAT IS THE SQUARE ROOT OF 9?

(i) Correct answer: 3

(ii) Correct answer: -3

(iii) Perfect answer: 3 or -3

3 is the square root of 9; and -3 is also the square root of 9. They are both correct answers. After all, the question asks for "square root of 9". But the student must prove that he knows both these possibilities. And the only way to do that perfectly is to present the answer as in (iii) above.

But I don't know what they teach kids in school these days. In my schooling days, "3" can earn half the marks; "-3" can earn half the marks; but only "3 or -3" can earn the full marks for the question.

In other words, if the teacher asks the student, what is the square root of 9?, the student is expected to answer "3 or -3", not just "3", even if that is still a correct answer.

Anonymous said...

A correct answer is a correct answer. Need not be perfect or best.

Cornelius said...

I don't force you to agree with me, my anonymous friend. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I respect your views.

In other words, my anonymous friend, if you were to sit for an exam with the following multiple-choice questions:

Q1) WHAT IS THE SQUARE ROOT OF 9?

A) 3

B) -3

C) 3 or -3

Q2) WHAT IS THE OUTER-MOST LETTER OF THE WORD "DAMASCUS"?

A) D

B) S

C) D or S

you consider any one of those choices deserves the full score. That is fine; who knows, maybe some examiners would give you that full score.

All I'm saying is if I were the examiner, I would only accept option C on both counts. Other choices would fail. But that’s ME! It is none of my business if the examinee did not bother to consider option C. All I need to do is to be sure that that option is there.

delurk said...

your line of reasoning is base on THE BEST choice.

treasure hunt is not like multiple choice exam where you are PRESENTED with 3 options.

in the first place, shouldn't a perfectionist CoC like you make sure that there are no alternative answers that COULD marginally fit. that the Q is tight enough that it's not even debatable?

Cornelius said...

delurk,

Treasure hunt answers have always been about looking for the BEST choice from multiple signboards. And from those many choices, there will always be many marginally-fit candidates.

As far as I am concerned, my DORS is not even debatable. Ask yourself from the the bottom of your heart, if you were there and faced with that question, and you found that isolated D, would you have been satisfied? Or would your sense that that D is unsatisfactory - incomplete, especially if you found an isolated S also? Would you not try to find something better?... maybe something that can cover both D and S?

We must remember that sometimes treasure hunt questions need not all be solvable on paper only. Sometimes, we need to be at the sectors and see the boards first, and then work our way backwards to the question. It is by virtue of which signboard can BEST fit the question, not the other way round. The "tightness" you speak of comes from the BEST answer you find in the sector, not from the question, though admittedly "tightness" can also come from the question.

Otherwise, how would you account for "Hotel?" Wouldn't you expect the hunters to see the boards in the sector first, and then hopefully figure out the BEST answer from there?

delurk said...

well, if my team was there.

Before reaching the sector:

Driver Adrian Wong (AW): Oi! Oi! what is the next question.

Me: Edge of Damascus

Weng Ngai(WN): So we're looking for D or S

Me: Ya maybe some apartment block or address maybe logo

AW: eh can be o or f also what. plus something to do with Damascus.

Me: Look out for 500 also.

WN: Like that can be "loud" also.

Me: where got signboard with the word loud one.

Reach the sector.

AW: question starts here.

Me: eh Machine still here woh. Must be tough.

AW: Maybe they stop to buy treasure lah.

Me: eh there got D on that office carpark pillar.

WN : I can't see

AW: Just write lah, no need to see. D @ carpark pillar Menara Sabah.

AW: mmmm... i don't really like this answer. Look a bit more. So simple why Machine still here what.

AW: ok what about this one DORS Enterprise

WN: Where? I can't see!!

Me: There, the Magnum 4D shop, the staircase beside it,black in colour

WN and Me: aahh this one better.

AW: Write already? Faster Machine coming.

Left the sector:

Me: Actually he can't fault D @ carpark also what?

WN: Ya, also correct. But of course DORS better lah.

AW: ya lah he always kutuk people's question not tight.

WN: eh just now the enterprise is ze or se ah???

Another scenario if we can't find DORS.

AW: ok one more round, if we can't find anything, we have to leave already.

After searching and can't find DORS

Me: Lets go. WN, you wrote the D already ah?

WN: ya ya

AW: what the next question?

At the presentation:

COC : the answer is DORS

WN: but D is not wrong what. Not fair.

Me: AW you go and talk to him after this.

AW: CoC, what is wrong with D

CoC: I'm a perfectionist !!!

After the hunt,

Me: never mind I'll write on my blog.

AW: ya we whack him properly.

WN: Not fair.

delurk said...

well, if my team was there.

Before reaching the sector:

Driver Adrian Wong (AW): Oi! Oi! what is the next question.

Me: Edge of Damascus

Weng Ngai(WN): So we're looking for D or S

Me: Ya maybe some apartment block or address maybe logo

AW: eh can be o or f also what. plus something to do with Damascus.

Me: Look out for 500 also.

WN: Like that can be "loud" also.

Me: where got signboard with the word loud one.

Reach the sector.

AW: question starts here.

Me: eh Machine still here woh. Must be tough.

AW: Maybe they stop to buy treasure lah.

Me: eh there got D on that office carpark pillar.

WN : I can't see

AW: Just write lah, no need to see. D @ carpark pillar Menara Sabah.

AW: mmmm... i don't really like this answer. Look a bit more. So simple why Machine still here what.

AW: ok what about this one DORS Enterprise

WN: Where? I can't see!!

Me: There, the Magnum 4D shop, the staircase beside it,black in colour

WN and Me: aahh this one better.

AW: Write already? Faster Machine coming.

Left the sector:

Me: Actually he can't fault D @ carpark also what?

WN: Ya, also correct. But of course DORS better lah.

AW: ya lah he always kutuk people's question not tight.

WN: eh just now the enterprise is ze or se ah???

Another scenario if we can't find DORS.

AW: ok one more round, if we can't find anything, we have to leave already.

After searching and can't find DORS

Me: Lets go. WN, you wrote the D already ah?

WN: ya ya

AW: what the next question?

At the presentation:

COC : the answer is DORS

WN: but D is not wrong what. Not fair.

Me: AW you go and talk to him after this.

AW: CoC, what is wrong with D

CoC: I'm a perfectionist !!!

After the hunt,

Me: never mind I'll write on my blog.

AW: ya we whack him properly.

WN: Not fair.

Cornelius said...

HAHAHA!... Really ah, delurk? Would you really choose D when you're aware of the existence of DORS? Sure or not oh?

If you want to insist you'd still choose D (or S) over DORS, then what more can I say - you made an unwise choice lor! I still say my DORS is better!

Wah... don't lah whack me so damn hard.... Aiyoh!... posted twice somemore!...HAHAHA!

But really, let's find out from the other masters (damn, I wish I knew how to conduct a poll). With this question, and if you saw both the D and DORS during the hunt, which one would you choose?

This is of course for academic purposes only... to be honest, I don't even know if there's a D (or S) there! And of course, no teams gave me D (or S) either. But I want to know anyway. So come on, masters, what say you all? Which of the two would you choose (assuming you saw both)?

Oh! by the way, Alex, you see how the other master teams respect your team so much? Always your team becomes the yardstick!

delurk said...

aiyoh, Bro, up there already said. DORS better lah, but if cannot find DORS, we have not problem taking D.

Cornelius said...

Oops! Sorry delurk. I read over again, and just realised that you'd choose D if you didn't see DORS!... Ok, that's more like it lah!

So if you failed to see the intended answer, DORS, whose fault it that?

Cornelius said...

If that is your line or argument, red herring also tak boleh jadi lah, my friend. If you acknowledge that DORS is better than D, then that settles the issue lor!

In the red herring case, the decoy also looks very much like the answer. And if you can't find the better answer, which is the intended answer, of course you take that next best one lor. Who ask you not to spot the intended (better) answer? How can you say unfair? Can fit, but not as good as the intended answer mah!

renroc said...

Again agree with delurk that treasure hunts cannot be treated in the same way as multiple-choice exam Qs.
In ans to your Q, I will choose DORS as it would result in the Q being reasonably elegant, but the other answers (also correct) would cause the Q to be inelegant.
However, the hunter should only need to find a correct (faultless?) answer. The onus is not on the hunter to ensure that the Q is elegant.
(An) edge of Damascus is required not every possible edge.
Would the existence of HORY (for 5/3) cause the other ans to be wrong since those other answers did not cater to the possibility that 5/3 could mean 3rd May ?
If one easily spotted 'Bangunan Mara' in answer to 'Half-marathon', should one still scan hundreds of signs to ensure that 'Thonormara' does not exist ? Is this practical during a hunt ?

delurk said...

Ikan Merah, lain cerita. Looks very much like the answer but not perfect.

In this case I consider D as perfect fit.

Anyway bro, this is my last comment on this topic. It's Fri afternoon and I'm out of here. Going to get myself a life!!!!

Cornelius said...

It is profound what you say there, renroc! I guess there is nothing I can do to change your view about D (or S). If you say D is as good as DORS, it's my words against yours... or rather against you people!

OK, it's time for reality check!

So you say, renroc, if D (or S) was there in that sector. It would make my Q inelegant.

1. Am I to take it that since no D and S there, then you consider my Q elegant?

2. What if the possibility of the existence of D (or S) is there, but not actually there. Would you still consider the Q elegant?

Cornelius said...

Aww... leaving already, delurk?... hehehe.

Come on lah friend... this IS life also mah! Very interesting debate!... woohoo!

Cornelius said...

Y'know, renroc, actually I was not finished with that "5/3". There's more I'd like to comment on that question, until Mike stopped me in his blog!... hahaha!

Let's put it this way. I suppose if D was there; and if S was there; and something else which could have also answered "EDGE OF DAMASCUS", why then the Q becomes inelegant.

If "H @ Hydrant" was there; if "HORY" was there, why then "5/3" becomes inelegant.

Now the question is this: What if "H @ Hydrant" and "HORY" are both not there. Is "5/3" elegant then?

I say, no, it is still not elegant. But let's just say that I'd rather keep that discussion until later. Maybe after my KK Challenge 5, hmmm?

peter said...

Corny was asking for Master's comment, but I am no Master. So this probably worth less than a cent. But I can help MIA for this interesting 'discussion'. Thus this is just a regular non-master hunter point of view.

I still remember quite clearly during school days that if we provide an answer for +3 OR -3 to square root of 9, we get zero (0) point. Corny was lucky to get half the point from his teacher. Mathematically the answer is 'Plus and minus three'. Note that I wrote answer, and not answers.

I tend to agree with Corny here. The reason for agreeing to him: see above.

I am sort of surprise of the 'commotion' created by the master. I would expect them to totally ignore standalone D or S for answer, and just go for DORS as it would fit nicely to the question, assuming all 3 answers were there. If I am trying to learn something from the Master here, it totally got me all confused.

I am also equally confused by this statement from 2R1II: would have had a different opinion had the signage for DORS been a LARGE one.

I am not a veteran hunter, but I have never known that the size of signage have any bearing on the type of question.

All I can say is that this game or sport of treasure hunting is evolving so fast, that regular non-master hunters like me will find it very hard to catch up with the masters. Their line of thinking is changing so quickly that when I reach their current level, they are already not there but a level higher.

Cornelius said...

Aha! Finally, someone agrees with me! God bless you, peter!

But, peter, this is all just academic in nature. This debate did not arise because there were teams which actually submitted "D" as the answer for this question. Out of the 20 teams, more than half submitted BABYLON. Some left the question unanswered; and a few others gave other signboards. From what I know, there's no standalone "D" and "S", but I must make it a point to go and check one of these days.

But this whole debate arose because 2R1I is of the opinion that the question is not "tight". Hence, he suggested "some tightening of screws and bolts." Meaning that I might have to add some more words to exclude other possible answers, e.g. the standalone D.

In fact, he is not wrong. If one is able to add words in the question so that only - and only - DORS can be accepted, i.e. to the exclusion of D, S, and a long list of other possibilities, that would be great. But the reality is that one is unable to foresee every single thing, and every possible line of thoughts from the hunters. So the most obvious alternatives would be considered, and once those are blocked (in the opinion of the setter), no other words shall be imported into the question for blocking purposes. That's why, you can find questions like:

Q) Tore?

and

Q) Hotel?

in treasure hunts. Maybe the setters for the above questions did consider other possibilities, but were convinced that those other possibilities were not as good as their intended answers respectively, I don't know. I am not saying this for the setters - I am merely guessing here.

However, when one observes from a distance, looking at just a single word like "TORE" and "HOTEL", he might find those kind of questions precariously unimpressive and may be inviting a host of possible answers.

And therefore, from the comforts of my home, I can suggest: what if there is this, and what if there is that in the sector? I can say "TORE", for example, is inelegant because there might be so and so signboards in that sector. And so I might suggest to the setter to tighten up the screws and bolts a bit to protect himself. For his single-worded "TORE" appears to me an accident waiting to happen.

However, I did no such thing, because I had faith in the setter. If the question was set that way, I'm sure there is a reason for it. And I am confident that the setter must have considered possible alternative lines of thoughts and deemed himself safe from possible alternative answers within that sector.

But I might be wrong! And the setter might be wrong! There might have been other possibilities which the setter did not think of! And that's why we come back to the reality in treasure hunts when setting questions. The setter sets the question. He looks at it from several possible angles. He polishes it here and there and then satisfies himself that there are no other fitting answers within that sector. And when the question is finally unleashed to the hunters, it is not really important that questions should be raised on "what ifs", because the setter has tried very hard to ensure that those "what ifs" are nowhere to be found within that sector!

Yet the setter may be wrong, because when he sets the question:

Q) 5/3

for the intended:

A) ...ISH

he did not realise that somewhere lurking within that sector is a fitting H @ Hydrant! Like I said, that is the reality of treasure hunts. We setters can only try our best.

As I said, I did consider D and S briefly and thought that my DORS is superior. And I still think it is superior! I therefore did not find the need to exclude D and S in the question.

Marsha said...

Cornelius,

To be fair to 2RII, just wanted you to know that the "TORE" question wasn't his, but mine. When I presented this question to him, 2RII actually raised his worries over the possibilities of alternative answers that may also fit the question. Working with him, I realised that 2RII is very careful in that aspect. It is of utmost importance to him that questions must be tight and not present themselves to the dangers of other possible answers. I remember telling him not to worry, as I had already studied all other signboards and made very sure that no other signs fit. Still he wasn't too convinced, because he was worried I may have failed to recognise or detect a possible answer that could be conjured up by some Masters. He then started to think up all possibilities that could lead to TORE especially anagrams of the synonyms of TORE .... this I tell you, there are lots! Anyway, to convince him further and also to make ourselves doubly and triply sure, KK and me actually made another trip back to the Q sector just to scrutinise all available signboards out there. This Q being the only Double Jeopardy Q, we insisted that we should put this up to help add variety to the type of questions that we already have. So, if you must know, it was after much persuasion, argument and our word that there's no alternative answers, did 2RII finally agree to have this DJ on the platter. Phew, so much for this one question, not sure whether it was worth it after all!

Since I've arrived here, thought I might as well give my opinion of the interesting topic at hand. In the case of "Edge of Damascus", let's not debate on the tightness of the question. The other point the Masters were all trying to stress is that if "D" or "S" or "DORS" are all in the field, then any of these three answers should be correct since there should not be any degree of correctness in the answer. If you were to conduct a poll, it should not be whether "D" or "S" or "DORS" is the best choice. Rather it should be whether "D" or "S" should be accepted as correct even though obviously "DORS" is the best choice. In fact, I think this is the main point of contention that the masters were trying to raise.

Got me to thinking: If the clue gives rise to alternatives, is it necessary to include all alternatives into the answer for a perfect fit? Clues such as EDGE OF, HALF OF, PART OF, etc all give rise to several alternatives.

Edge of Damascus = D or S
Half of Damascus = DAMA or SCUS
Part of Damascus = DAM or MAS or CUS or .... the variations can go on and on.

Allow me to quote one of your hunt questions using a similar clue:
Q. An eatery which is only half normal.
A. Kafeteria NOR

To be precise and fully correct, HALF NORMAL = NOR or MAL
So, wouldn't this make Kafeteria NOR half correct?
If "NOR" can be accepted as correct, why not "D" or "S" in the case of "Edge of Damascus"?

Treasure hunts should not be about finding the best answer. Rather, it should be about finding the only one correct answer. But if there are alternative answers in the field which also fits the question, then it's only fair that hunters be awarded the full points for any one of the answers. After finding an answer that fits, how are hunters to know there's another better answer out there. What if there isn't, then precious time may be wasted in trying to find a more befitting answer which may not even exist in the first place. To avoid this predicament for hunters, I agree it's the onus of the COC to tighten up the question and not leave room for speculation of a better answer.

A red herring acts as a decoy from the correct answer, so in actuality is an incorrect answer on the basis that it is simply wrong or that it does not answer part of the question. So to me, "D" or "S" are inappropriate as red herrings for "Edge of Damascus". However, I think they will make good red herrings for Delurk's Q : At the edge of Damascus, a spaceship landed?

Cornelius said...

Marsha,

It's been a while since the last time you commented in this blog. Thanks for sharing your opinion, my friend. And I hope you will be kind enough to keep sharing your views here.

Please don't get me wrong. I did not suggest that "TORE?" was right or wrong. I said it appeared loose if seen on paper. But I was there for the hunt, and I must admit that I couldn't find anything more suitable than the intended answer. It's in that sense that that question was "tight", because no other answers within that sector could fit satisfactorily! And it's in that sense that I'd say the question is good.

But what I'm trying to point out is that when seen on paper, the master hunter can probably think of so many other possibilities that might arise from just that one word, TORE. It really doesn't matter, because as long as the setter has ensured that all those other possibilities are not found within that sector, then it is of no significance if there are 100 other possibilities. We should look at treasure hunt questions like that.

That's why if you read through my previous comment again, I said I had faith that the setter would have considered other possibilities for TORE, and convinced himself that his intended answer was still the only one within that sector.

Therefore, Marsha, as for my own question:

Q) An eatery which is only half normal.

A) Kafeteria NOR

We have the same situation. You are right to point out that there are other possibilities, say, RESTORAN MAL. I have thought of that. But having scanned that sector, I was satisfied that no RESTORAN MAL was there.

And finally, coming back to D and S. Yes, I have to reluctantly agree, expecially after what renroc wrote in his last comment - that:

"If one easily spotted 'Bangunan Mara' in answer to 'Half-marathon', should one still scan hundreds of signs to ensure that 'Thonormara' does not exist ? Is this practical during a hunt ?"

Somehow I did not think that D and S could fit perfectly when I set the question, and therefore did not find the need to protect myself from D and S. Maybe I was just lucky that no team actually submitted those answers.

So in the end, TORE is good and "tight", but not tight from the question; rather, tight because within that sector not others can fit.

And similarly, "EDGE OF DAMASCUS" is tight, but not tight from the question; rather, tight because within that sector no D, S and (hopefully) other possible alternatives.

Like I said, we setters try our best to check the sector thoroughly for possible alternatives much the same way you did for TORE. Just because there are other possible answers does not mean that the question is not tight.

BUT! sometimes we, being humans, can also blunder. I did too. A good example is when you yourself found 101 SUPERSTORE, when in fact there was a C1 at the parking lot. What can I say, I have repeatedly said that I am not perfect. But I am a perfectionist, in that I try my best to be perfect!

2 Romans 1 Impostor said...

This question from the Atmah hunt this weekend brought a smile to my face.

Q: Jagged edge.
Intended answer: IMBR
Alternative possible answer: D

During the hunt, I had hoped that a few regular hunters would answer "D" as I wanted to find out the CoC's reaction.

Sure enough there were 2 master teams that had answered "D". 1 of them must have challenged the CoC to accept the alternative answer for the CoC did give in (during the answer presentation).

Guess not all CoCs follow the discussions put forth in this blog, for otherwise this situation could very well have been avoided (smile).

Cornelius said...

Wow! That is an interesting coincidence, 2R1I! So it is still useful for CoCs and hunters to follow hunt discussions here!

Too bad for this particular CoC that the "D" was there in that sector. And maybe because he did not follow this discussion here, he did not even realise the possibility of the "D" answer. It would have been even more interesting if "J" was there too!... hehehe